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Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules. Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo. Warning and or timeout for a first offense. PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.

See above for penalties. Caveat: if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods. We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post. We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking. There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious. There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.

If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining. Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious. Deal with it. Welcome to anarchy. If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.

They will be explained to you soon enough. It is interesting that the Colie rig morphed into the I-1 rig. The midwest guys with the exception of John Ruf mocked the backstay less rigs and stayed with the backstay rigs until the first MBW boat showed up at the Mendota Nationals as the I-1 rig. Of course the current NCESA Commodore at the time had a question of legitimacy and insulted Buddy by insisting the boat need to be measured and whether the rig was legal. The result was Buddy in turn parked the boat at the regatta site and refused to sail it as he was insulted because of the accusation. The boat was legal and the NCESA Commodore apologized but Buddy did not sail. It created a real nightmare as everyone tried to smooth over the issue.

Out East for the better part of the nineties the Colie rig was the flavor of choice for the top of the E fleet. Henry was actually making a good business out of rigging the boats that way at the factory and also aftermarket.

Yet the majority of boats were still being sold with backstays. The used boats that went out East had backstays there was only one or two boats that carried that rig. Now today the backstayless rig is the rig of choice. The difference between the rigs is the fact that you run extreme amounts of rig tension in comparison to the old standards. Seldom did anyone exceed the 450-500lbs loads with the backstays. The new rigs run anywhere from 850lbs plus in standard conditions.

This load effectively changes the fatigue cycle of the boat as a whole. The conventional rig as a whole maybe faster with increased tension and with the additional spreaders set up top. What might even be faster yet is the Colie rig with additional spreaders and added backstays. That has yet to be seen. Give Henry the time and he will build the best mousetrap. Eventually someone may claim it but then again we all know where it started.

Hey, I grabed the idea from Peter Commette and Terry Kempton. After representing the US in Finns at the 1976 Olympics Peter ordered a 1978 Johnson and had Skip build it with aft chainplates. They were sailiing with up to 1,200 lbs. Of shroud tension and no backstays.

Peter won the Easterns, second in the Blue Chip and was second to Buddy at the Nationals that year. Not a bad rookie season. That was almost 30 years ago. They got the idea from 470's. Never throw out lemming sh*&, burn it instead.

Lemmings, puppetmasters what a vernacular! I got an idea hassle, why dont you grab that strap on from your lingerie drawer ( hint its underneath the pink crotchless panties and right next to the leather mask w/ the red ball) and act like you own a pair.you gutless pussy. I suppose now that the season is over you are going to go back into 'tough guy behind the keyboard' mode? That will last till say, late May then when you actually have to see me and jibby and cosmic on the water you will go back into hiding. God I wish summer lasted forever. Wow -- that's a sad display. Petey: why not just delete instead of apologizing for the 'hijack' of what was a otherwise constructive online conversation?

Rhetorical question. Do as you like (as I'm sure you intend). Kai: ignore if you can.

BTW, I meant to mail you -- new D1D newsletter listed some fresh used E sails: hab4: what Sail Fast describes on EaOD and tolerance looks right to my eye. Measured at loft, button sails, end of story. And, ahem, tolerance seems an appropriate word / thought just now. The current symmetrical spinnakers can be 12' different in luff dimn. And still be legal and buttoned at the sailmaker. Art Two significant events have occurred since that symmetrical scantling was written: 1) Virtually all sails now are designed on a computer, and cut out by a computer.

No more dressmaker's shears on a pair of overtaxed knees, and 2) The cloth of choice has changed from nylon (stretchy) to polyester (about 1/3 the stretch). A 12 inch range is no longer necessary. If the will of the fleet is to produce a nominally 'one-design' sail, then tighter tolerances are in order, more like a given dimension, plus or minus 2 inches. I like Dierk Polzin's idea, take one sailmaker's design, put it on a Flash card, and give that design to whoever wants to produce those sails, paying a nominal fee for the cost of the media.Dierk put it at $20. The sails built to date?

Grandfather them. Asymmetrical spinnakers do not get faster with age. I would venture that the asymmetrical would have passed two years ago if the Board had limited the sails then to one per boat, and also pursued the single pattern concept.

As a Board, you have the opportunity now to do it. This is a test of wills; my question to all of the Board members is, do you have the cojones to stand up to the apoplectic fits that come out of Zenda? I can certainly tell you that the A fleet has no such ability. Is the E fleet any different? If one designing the asymmetric spinnaker why not define the maximum size and then put a tolerance for the minumum of -3'. Put the pattern on a flash card like refered to earlier by someone quoting Dierk, and then make it available to all lofts.

If instead you create the dimension and then you allow +/_ six inches you still will get a wide assortment of sails futhermore the perception will remain that somebody has something different or the opportunity to get something diferent/better. If the North pattern has twice as many or three times as many sails one design that shape and send the file shape to Quantum or vice versa. I'm trying to catch up here, please help if you would be so kind: 1. The NCESE BOD is set to vote on Saturday about approving another class vote on assymetric spinnakers and it looks like the majority is in favor?

What does that mean with regard to E-scow club racing? The e-scow.org webmaster is demanding 5k for work done on the website? Is he also squatting on www.e-scow.com and proposing to sell it to NCESE? For how much? The Rogue's Gallery of contrarians, Willie C, Egor and Big Asshole have once again voiced their opinions about changing a scow fleet: 'Change is good. Oh no, don't change anything.

Let's change but don't let Zenda have a say. No wait let's not change. Change but don't do it like the other classes. Change but don't change because someone's going to profit. We need leaders to dictate change, but don't make changes that people in Wisconsin like.' Is that a fair summary?

You clowns look like Hilary Clinton defending her Senate votes. The Jibber's take: the contrarians will piss and moan no matter what happens. It's in their nature.

They also tend to confuse the entertainment provided by SA forums with reality. I got a visual of Big-A sailing with a ball gag and thought that was pretty funny. FWIW, the e-scow.org website is helpful because it's up-to-date, but from a design and usability perspective it leaves a lot to be desired.

The guy demands 5k for that, and is holding the login hostage? I'm curious why he would write an application for regatta management when there are dozens of decent free products available for download. This sounds like a REALLY BAD DEAL but maybe I don't know the whole story. And Jibber's take. Both are funny enough.

As per usual, it appears you'd profit by enrollment in remedial reading though Jib_Man. Post graduation suggested reading would include the Bylaws, paying close attention to areas in regards class scantling changes. Let me save you some time with this hint: a majority doesn't cut it. It requires super majority of >66.6%.

The little arrow (>) means greater than, so, 67 out of every 100 votes cast need be Aye to pass. The next area you could study with new found reading skills is what is contrary and what promotes the afore-mentioned super majority. Before and after vote #1 some you callously berate have exchanged thoughts on how to draw support from the center and, in doing so, develop an overwhelming majority (consensus). Comprehension through reading and math are prerequisite to understanding business. Did you post a fair summary? Nope, you missed the mark (again / still). Zenda won't rise or fall due to the asym passing, or, and this is the smart business part, by ODing the sail to help it pass.

They won't sell kites at a loss. If moving the fleet from division to unity matters, then finding agreement between the two camps is important. Or, there's always that steam-roller approach that's worked so well in the past. IF the thing doesn't pass this time maybe cool heads and compromise will be employed for vote #3 in 2009? But, it's been suggested I lighten up and there's no need to post tit-4-tat since, well, it's like wading in the shallow end. Best Regards, Egor ps - some JT for Jo-Mama: Well, i'm a steamroller, baby I'm bound to roll all over you Yes, i'm a steamroller now, baby I'm bound to roll all over you I'm gonna inject your soul with some sweet rock 'n roll And shoot you full of rhythm and blues. Jeff the Jibman no need to denegrate this forum as well.

You have more then illustrated your ability to misspell, comprehend and communicate. First Its NCESA not NCESE For the intergalactically stupid such as yourself please go to e-scow.org the acronym is on top of the page. Second Read something more then once.

Retention in your case would be helped probably by multiple passes. Third Congratulations on becoming the next web person for the NCESA( NCESA,NCESA). I am sure you will devote all your available time much like Dierk and others have to ensuring a quality format and content is posted 24/7 365. From your extreme involvement in your local club, which you may or may not have paid dues for this season this will be a fine step up for participating in the sailing community. Four What does this mean for club racing. Well Jeff if you could read and understand things it would mean if the asymmetric thingy passes you sail with it next season or at which time it is either phased in or allowed by the vote.

RIF man 'reading is fundamental' Five Jeff if we have to dig into sexuality please explain the Russian mail order bride? Thanks again and have a nice day. (remember its NCESA).

OK, the Minnetonka rival bashing can stop anytime now. I am so freakin' glad I'm 120 miles south of you guys. Hassle, I know you are great at bashing people and being pretty damn funny at doing it, but bringing a guys wife into it, that's a new all time low for you.

Please Click for the MYC rival bashing. In regards to fleet racing per Jibman's question. Who the hell knows what's going to happen.

In my particular fleet I have talked to most skippers and most are wanting to stay as is, those that are members of the NCESA (few unfortunately) are going to be voting no and hoping the vote goes that way. Even if the vote swings the other and the experiment is passed I don't think our lake as a whole would be converting. I believe 2-3 boats would convert, race symmetrical at home and Asym at regattas. Shitty situation. Funny that my typo threw both Egor and Big-A into a tizzy. Hehe I do appreciate the responses. Seems like the situation is pretty clear, and one way or another the change is going through.

Regarding the website. I don't intend to cast stones but 5k just sounds like a lot 'o dough for an organization with thin revenues. What percent of the NCESA annual revenue does 5k represent? I know this is a matter for the BOD and NCESA members to decide, but the webmaster himself has made it public on this forum. Just curious, what was the original agreement?

Wow ~ the fur is really flying now. I'm gonna get a big bag of popcorn and eat half today and the other half tomorrow. On the topic of the $5K website stuff, First of all, I'm not sure any of this has been substantiated yet. That being said (wrote), it is still rumor. But, what I do remember of this rumor is that the website for Charleston Nationals with online registration was built from scratch by someone who does that sort of thing, this person was not compensated for their time and efforts put into the website. Agreed the E-scow.org website could use a re-vamping and nice fresh new look.

Dierk did do a good job in keeping that thing up to date and active. So a big thank you to Dierk for the efforts from years past. I hope that everyone can suck it up and vote this Asym change in this time. Even if you don't like, if this does not pass this time around, you can kiss big fleet E-scow racing goodbye. It will be like the Civil War.Brother will be pit against brother.

Asym against Syms, and after the dust settles the loser will refer to it as the 'War of (A)Symmetrical Aggression'. In the words of Rodney King ~ Can't we all just get a long [piece of carbon tubing sticking out from the bow and a mast head kite]? See you Tomorrow morning!! Dierk did do a good job in keeping that thing up to date and active. So a big thank you to Dierk for the efforts from years past. Yes indeed, the site always has up-to-date info and pictures, so a big thanks should definitely be in order!

But is that worth x% of the annual revenue? Writing a one-off application for regatta registration at the expense of the organization sounds crazy. There must be a hundred ways to do that easily and for free. If he wrote a shopping cart with payment by credit card, that would take some time.

But is it worth the trouble and expense, and was it approved before-hand? Anyways, I'm just curious. Can one of you tell me how many paid members the class has, and how many boats are out there (active)? From the 2006 Membership Report, from the Class E website, www.e-scow.org, under 'Class News', the production statistics for the past 10 years are published: 19-16 19-28 20-12 20-22 20-7 That's 169 boats built in the last 10 years. Note that the 1997 and 1998 numbers are inclusive of 2 builders, both Johnson and Melges.

In July of 1998, Johnson sold their scow business, complete with moulds, to Melges Boat Works. Check my math, that's 16.9 new boats per year. Don't know who got the.9 boat each year, but I'll bet they were slow! There is a disconnect between the participation numbers, and the production numbers. The class just had their largest Nationals event ever, with 92 boats on Lake Minnetonka.

I don't know why there is a rush to attend regattas at Minnetonka, I believe it is a combination of the venue, plus really extraordinary Race Committee work over the past 40 years. Make no mistake, a starting line with 92 boats on Smith's Bay is a nightmare, for competitors and RC alike, as the lake is not big enough to set a 2 mile first windward beat, and the first weather mark was pure bumper cars, the few times that I was able to watch. That record Nationals attendance came on the heels of an annualized production run of 7 boats.

Could be a harbinger of what is to come, but probably more a response to uncertainty over the asymmetrical issue. Boats over 10 years old regularly attend the Nationals, but in my view, are not competitive, as the hulls, with their vast flat expanses dictated by the Scantlings, soften with use. Happy friday! ____________ And you may ask yourself What is that beautiful house? And you may ask yourself Where does that highway go? And you may ask yourself Am I right?am I wrong?

And you may tell yourself My god!what have I done? Letting the days go by/let the water hold me down Letting the days go by/water flowing underground Into the blue again/after the moneys gone Once in a lifetime/water flowing underground. Same as it ever was.same as it ever was.same as it ever was. Same as it ever was.same as it ever was.same as it ever was.

Same as it ever was.same as it ever was. The class just had their largest Nationals event ever, with 92 boats on Lake Minnetonka. I don't know why there is a rush to attend regattas at Minnetonka, I believe it is a combination of the venue, plus really extraordinary Race Committee work over the past 40 years. Make no mistake, a starting line with 92 boats on Smith's Bay is a nightmare, for competitors and RC alike, as the lake is not big enough to set a 2 mile first windward beat, and the first weather mark was pure bumper cars, the few times that I was able to watch. That record Nationals attendance came on the heels of an annualized production run of 7 boats.

Could be a harbinger of what is to come, but probably more a response to uncertainty over the asymmetrical issue. That was a great regatta, well run, great housing, had a good time! Its was cold as shit though, 42F on Sunday morning. That was a great regatta, well run, great housing, had a good time! Its was cold as shit though, 42F on Sunday morning. Gotta love the unpredictability of Midwest sailing in September.

Could be 90*, could be 30* you just never know. I didn't actually race in that Nationals but I was there to watch. It was incredible for a number of reasons. Just seeing 92 E boats on one line was amazing 2. The RC work was incredible (Blake should be getting pats on the back for that one for years to come) 3. Having a regatta of that size is quite the task anywhere but Pat Hughes and wife did a bang up job in every aspect. Can't wait for the 50th at Chataqua (sp), we'll be there no matter which way this vote goes.

Ahh E-Gor ~ Just a little Friday fun and humor. After years of posts, we can say definitively that Egor is prone to being a bit grumpy.

Not that there's anything wrong with that. It's just how he rolls. Mixed with the grumpiness and skepticism is a pretty good grasp of the technical details (and spelling!), so don't count ol' Egor out. But with a name like 'Egor' I have always imagined a hideous oger with giant pimples and a hunch back ringing some fucking old bell in angst over MBW this and MBW that.

Who art though Egor? Why doest though grind thine axe after all? Do you have any insight into Big Asshole's ballgag or panty fetish??. Jib_Man: yes, that's just what I look like, when sitting at the keyboard, a vision of Igor. But, it's a Hulk thing, away from the terminal I'm just an ordinary Joe who cares more about sailing as a sport, and what we pass on to kids, than what happens irt the Easym. As to insights on toys, well, you seem to have an intimate knowledge of such things and I leave you to it.

Hab4 asked again about tolerance. Egor has, before / after vote #1, suggested OD would reduce friction and draw the fleet together. Recently, upstream ^ here, Willie posted about how modern technology has changed sailmaking since the time when sym scantlings were specified. Computers draw the design, computers cut the fabric, and the fabric is more uniform. It occurred to me I'd read this before, so I went trawling old threads to find the source. Sure enough, there's the same, or, a similar statement, expressed by lofty, back in 2006. Lofty - post #220 The spinnaker tolerances were tightened up considerably for the proposal.

While not 'one-design', they were provided with much research and input from the rules committee and sailmakers respectively. The tolerances are much, much smaller then those used currently. Today, with computer design and computer cut sails, it is not difficult to make all sails exactly the same, but that is not what I would want. Thread - post - Note: for context, in both the old and current thread lofty said it's not his preference, to have OD spins. He also said do it if it helps pass the asym vote #2. If I have it wrong he can come and correct my error hisself.

IMO it'd be smart for the Board to adopt OD kites with a sunset provision (to revisit the rule). There doesn't need to be a 6' or 4' or 2' tolerance for sailmakers to deliver the goods, meaning button sails, good to go, no measuring required. Button sails can stretch or shrink, no matter. This has code-zero to do with ax-grinding though saying it has nothing to do with MPS-N or Q is Pollyanna.

Do it to develop consensus. Do it for unity.

The steam-roller approach is another alternative. But, ya can't hide a steam-roller. Egor Young Frankenstein, 1974.

So as i read this it appears that most of you are for advancement in technology and design but want the sailmakers to make the same shape spinnakers? That would definitely not bode well for the little guys out there that rely heavily on trying to come up with a better faster shape. It will be about price at that point and I am pretty sure the blue dot will win that war. That is surely one way to strangle the smaller loft(s) Set your minimum and max luff and leach lengths as well as your girths and design away. As long as those parameters are set and the sailmakers all abide by them there should be no issue.

I understand that part of what this is about is making sure there isnt a 'whomper' (I fucking hate that gay ass name and cringe at the thought of its origin) that will come onto the scene therefore making 3 or 4 spinnakers in your quiver mandatory. But if you are all fearfull of the evil puppetmasters in Zenda now just wait till they are the only sailmakers too. I'm certainly one of those little guys the rev is refering to. I for one would want to know that the reason i'm getting my assed kicked is because they are better sailors than i, not because they have better/faster equipment. I'm with Egor on this one, OD the sails make the playing field level, eliminate the need for 5 different spinnakers in the inventory and lets all go play. Btw Kai, though you guys may not be an 'official' fleet i think all the sailors of the E fleet consider you guys official in our book. I'm certainly one of those little guys the rev is refering to.

Free Who Wants To Be A Millionaire Game Downloads there. I for one would want to know that the reason i'm getting my assed kicked is because they are better sailors than i, not because they have better/faster equipment. Of some relevance here, posted below is the Porter sisters' spinnaker inventory for the A scow FULL THROTTLE, as relayed to the fleet in an e-mail from Harry III, dated February 5, 2001: 100 degree reacher for really tight reaching, ask Willie.5oz small reacher for light air reaching and running.75oz small reacher for heavy air reaching.5oz VMG for 4-10 running.5oz Whomper for 8-20 running.8oz Whomper for 15plus Hans whines every time we put this one up! Using current pricing, this represents about $25-30,000 worth of spinnaker cloth. In our own case, the A scows OKed the asymmetrical in August of 1995, at the Inland regatta. We did not convert early, we knew that there would be a very expensive development period, intended to have our conversion done by the Inland in 1996. We actually won the Invitational regatta at Pewaukee in July of 1996, against the Pewaukee group, all sporting new asymmetricals. We actually found the symmetrical sail more productive on Pewaukee, because we could jibe more readily.

Bear in mind, the A scow already had very well developed masthead symmetricals, and the Pewaukee regatta was a light air event. When the wind finally blew over 10 MPH at Minnetonka a month later, we got our asses handed to us in the last race.

Asymmetricals were passing us downwind, going over us, under us, anywhere they felt like it. We got the conversion done before the spring of 1997.

We bought 2 new asymmetricals. They were early in the 'development' process, and those sails were so completely outclassed, we bought one of the new, large sails, called a 'Whomper' in 1998 or 1999. Ultimately, by 2000, we had 3 new sails, the Whomper, a VMG, and a Quantum Large to replace the first two asymmetricals that were sold, as I remember, for $750.00 each. During that 4 year period, we spent about $20,000 on spinnakers, and sold off the detritus for $1,500.00. When the new VICTORY was built, we moved the crew across from ADIEU, but before that had happened, we had made a syndicate decision that a new main every other year, and a new jib every other year, was not cutting it: from now on, new main, new jib, EVERY year, just before the Championship. All of the top boats in the A boat, and E boat group, are doing this. My feeling is, if you start breaking into the top 10 in either fleet, it is time to do annual working sail replacements.

The scrap symmetricals were sent by me to Bacon's a couple of years ago. One has been sold for about $500, the other still awaits a new owner. The scow spinnakers are hard to sell, because the foot dimension is so large, especially the A boat spinnakers. The message, if there is a message, is that the fleet needs to control the Scantlings, or you will have runaway expenditures like are occurring in the A fleet. 100 degree reacher for really tight reaching, ask Willie.5oz small reacher for light air reaching and running.75oz small reacher for heavy air reaching.5oz VMG for 4-10 running.5oz Whomper for 8-20 running.8oz Whomper for 15plus Hans whines every time we put this one up! The message, if there is a message, is that the fleet needs to control the Scantlings, or you will have runaway expenditures like are occurring in the A fleet.

Willie that is just the game of the A Scow, don't get all huffy The E scow fleet will never turn into that, if you want to win in the A fleet that is what you need! But the E scow is a different game If I am not mistaken there are two different sizes of spinnakers allowed in the current symmetrical racing right. A Runner and a Reacher From my experience in racing these boats and what I have read to date I don’t see any problem with there being different size kites, It could just be two different sizes like it currently is. A lot of good hard was done yesterday ~ Kudos to Rick Turner for keeping the meeting flowing well.and for the kick ass lunch (who says you can't get a free lunch) a full press release will be out soon ~ On an even brighter note, Lon had place cards made up for the following peole: Rev. Petey, Big Hassle, SailLHYC, DannoZ11, Lofty, Jib Man, and few other ~ Pics to come.and NO I don't know what the placecards rate. Well glad it was a productive meeting rather than a huge shit fight.

Looking forward to the 'press release.' Too funny about the place cards, nowI wish I would have taken my wife up on the offer to go to Chicago for the weekend. At least Lon is able to keep things in perspective and realize that the bitching of SA is nothing personal. Well at least not for some of us.

Here it is for anyone who does not get Digital Reaches. Lee National Class E-Scow Association Digital Reaches Volumn 4, Issue 13 November 5, 2007 In This Issue Board of Directors Meeting Minutes Asymmetrical Scantling Changes Greetings! As you may have suspected, the Board of Directors has approved an amendment to the By-Laws to change the Scantling Rules to allow the asymmetrical spinnaker. A ballot will be sent to Regular members near the end of the month and will be due before the end of this year. The meeting minutes are pretty long, sorry you have to wade through it all to get to the parts you are most interested in.

The Board is aware that the membership needs much more information to cast an informed vote on this issue. That material will be prepared and made available before the vote, and also be included in the ballot mailing to Regular members. Sincerely, Lon Schoor Board of Directors Meeting Minutes National Class E Scow Board of Directors Meeting Minutes November 3, 2007 A. Call to Order - The meeting was called to order by Commodore Rick Turner at 9:30AM, Saturday, November 3, 2007, at the Chicago Yacht Club.

Rick had everyone introduce themselves around the table. DR Lee Vil what is the feeling on White Bear to switch over to the A sails?

Is anybody switching in the near future? Well, like many fleets, we're conflicted. We have built the fleet back up to 13 boats after dropping to 5 or 6 in the past few years. Some of the boats are old, some of us sailing them are getting older. The change will likely cause us to lose a boat or two in the short term, but long term I am confident this will grow the fleet by making the boat more appealing to a broader range of sailors. The heart of the WBYC fleet (including those who attended the fall fleet meeting) are all in favor of converting to Asym, but were reluctant to go against the NCESA or ILYA, and certainly were not going to spend the money in the absence of a scantling.

I have been in favor of the change ever since I saw it. Having sailed the A scow I know it is the right thing to do to make the boat more fun and more tactical off the wind. The E scow is just a fantastic boat on a tight reach, but when was the last time you got to do that in a race? When we used to sail triangular courses there was a lot of excitement on the downwind legs, but unfortunately it was a parade.

The Asym will make this class an outrageously fun ride in all but the lightest breezes. At our fall fleet meeting, I volunteered to convert my boat for 08 and let everyone have a try at it if they would allow me to sail in club races but un-scored. This passed unanimously and folks even said they didn't care if I was scored (there are some small advantages to routinely finishing in the back!) but I would never do that. While I might prefer to just let the experts convert the boat for me while I hibernate all winter, I decided that since most in our club would have to do it on the cheap, I should let them see what it takes to do the conversion. I plan to invite everyone to help / watch the conversion effort and one team has volunteered their heated garage for the project.

I will also convert to the swept spreader rig at the same time as I have never liked the danger of the backstays and we almost never need to really work them upwind in heavy air. So what pushed me to make the decision?

I have been putting off buying new spins and now I need a runner and a reacher, plus spin sheets. I'm just not going to pour any more cash into that old program when there is clearly something more fun to do with these boats. The Asym conversion kit cost me $1250 plus tax and shipping from Melges - that is really all it is. The A sail is a couple hundred more than the Runner that I needed to buy anyway. By the way, my boat is a 2001 MBW with the foil rudder upgrade. I hope you will all consider voting for the Asym this time around.

For many reasons, it is simply the right thing to do. Keep up the great debate here, both pro and con. This is a wonderful forum for ideas. The one point not mentioned is that 'fast' is relative. My goal is to have a boat that flies, but more importantly is faster than the other boats, whether it is a Laser or an E. As I said to my fleet, if I want a boat that goes very fast on one tack, I will get a catamaran.

The whole idea with an E is to go very fast, and use tactics both downwind and upwind. If I am gaining a little more thrill a couple of times a year, but lose the advantage of downwind tactics AND add more danger (me who got crunched three times this year - more times than in the last 30 - so much for the new rudders), then to me we are just like every new 'NASCAR' class out there, and lost one of our best marketing points.

Sometimes upgrading is good. But I continue to maintain that several of our 'improvements' have been to the benefit of the builder/sailmaker, and not the class. Rudders and Asym are definitely in this category. To the person who mentioned that the problem with the class is that this improvement is overhanging for anyone looking to buy a new boat, that is very true. It has also been true since one year after going to a single builder, as the builder has had some 'improvement' in the works ever since. Rather than going to the Asym, perhaps it is time to go to a builder without the tremendous conflict of interest our current builder has on all fronts, and/or tell the builder that the scantling rules are on a ten year freeze.

There are dozens of slow but extremely successful classes out there whose success is based on this exact premise: this is one design that will not change. And the Star class is a perfect example of a class that began down the slippery slope that the E-Scow is now sliding down, only to revert to strong sponsorship of local fleet sailing and strong scantlings (which resulted in our builder pulling out of the class) after watching the class shrink significantly, and finding strong growth now at all levels. Rather than going to the Asym, perhaps it is time to go to a builder without the tremendous conflict of interest our current builder has on all fronts, and/or tell the builder that the scantling rules are on a ten year freeze. There are dozens of slow but extremely successful classes out there whose success is based on this exact premise: this is one design that will not change.

And the Star class is a perfect example of a class that began down the slippery slope that the E-Scow is now sliding down, only to revert to strong sponsorship of local fleet sailing and strong scantlings (which resulted in our builder pulling out of the class) after watching the class shrink significantly, and finding strong growth now at all levels. As painful as it may seem right now, the E class was adopted in 1924 by the ILYA as an evolutionary design.( It became a national class in 1958) This means any resonable change to the boat that makes it faster, easier to sail, safer and of course more fun may be brought to the board through proper channels for an experiement and if proved successful, be put in front of the membership for approval.

For the current Board to put a 10 year freeze on changes, would only limit future boards from adhearing to the spirit of the original by-laws. The E-scow is EVOLUTIONARY in its continued development. It will evolve ~. [.] Most agreed they think the vote will pass. Some said we have to maintain a unified fleet by being sympathetic to those that oppose the change. Others felt like this has dragged on long enough and we need to get it over with because the class is being hurt more by waiting. There was concern that if the asymmetrical vote failed the E class would split.

[.] It's nice to know the word unity entered the conversation -- before the steam-roller belched to life. IRT the other -- the E class is already split. The best part urges effort towards implementation -- helping Clubs that might falter. That a committee will be formed? [.] it was determined that since only one spinnaker is allowed for an event and carried on the boat, and the 6 inch tolerance meets our one-design definition for size, the girth measurement could be eliminated [.] Vote #2 will allow 50% greater variance in tape measurements than did vote #1 AND make no restrictions in girth.

Welcome to the arms war. Please don't refer to the Asails as One Design. There will be numerous designs, certainly not one. If referred to as OD it's in name only, short of reality. At least, per Vegas, they made some lemon bars with this lemon. Carry on, Egor. Excerpts quoted from Digital Reaches (posted by Dr.

Lee): It's nice to know the word unity entered the conversation -- before the steam-roller belched to life. IRT the other -- the E class is already split. The best part urges effort towards implementation -- helping Clubs that might falter. That a committee will be formed? Vote #2 will allow 50% greater variance in tape measurements than did vote #1 AND make no restrictions in girth.

Welcome to the arms war. Please don't refer to the Asails as One Design. There will be numerous designs, certainly not one. If referred to as OD it's in name only, short of reality. At least, per Vegas, they made some lemon bars with this lemon. Carry on, Egor Hey Egor, I 'm gonna comment on thie one item and then I'm off to work.The kite measurement for girth was not limited so the makers could get it nailed down to fastest shape. Increasing the girth to the extreme on a reaching kite does not help it to be faster, it is actually slower.

Between Q and NS right now the kite variance in only like 2 feet in girth, co-measure that with the (once) 1 foot variance in tape dimensions. The reasearch has already been done and the shape is pretty much decided. But to lock it down to hyper tight tolerances would be a self defeating action. Y'know in business, when an issue arises and a million headed monster rears its ugly heads, I often ask myslef this simple question; 'Is is part of the problem or part of the solution?'

Well Egor where do you sit, Part of the problem or part of the solution? The goals and hopes are to be a unified class once again ~ Ohh yeah.the brownies and choco-chip cookies were good too. Egor, there was a seat at the table for you. All were welcome to come and persuade the BOD to their way of thinking.

Instead you start howling again. In regard to an arms race, if the high end programs choose to buy more chutes, that is their perogative. It might mean more 2nd hand sails filtering down to the rest. The proposed sail measurements are a maximum dimension, minus 6'. Effectively a + or - 3' tolerance. That is far less then the current tolerences on out current 'one design' symmetrical spinnakers. According to you, the 1st vote had a tolerance of + or - 2'?

I don't know if that is correct, I'll take your word for it. Not a deal breaker to me. Time to vote. Snorkle - howling / part of the problem?

Tis a matter of perspective Precious. Twist as you will. Those reading with an open mind instead of wanting to paint views as for / against their side would know my intent has been to develop consensus through compromise. But, all are welcome to form their own opinion(s), as am I. Lofty: check the specs from vote #1 if you like, or accept the stated tolerances were 4'. I posted the text from the PDF here if you care to look through the thread. Just pointing out the proposed 6' is 50% more than 4'.

Per your own posting, the tolerance on computer designed and cut sails could have been naught and delivered class button sails. That, OD asails, is something I would have voted for. Based on mail and PMs I am not alone.

But, flame away if that serves some purpose. I'll consider options. Meanwhile, folks are free to re-define one if they like, throw sticks and stones. Egor ps - sorry to have been rude -- forgot to send regrets -- don't much like lemon. I documented my whole conversion process pretty thoroughly.

The first pictures of Dan's boat start at about post #242. Here, I will try to bring you all right in on top of it: There are more pictures at about post #282, and more again at about #342.

Dan, why don't you re-post some of the more relevant stuff to this thread, and put it all together? We don't need pictures of the re-varnishing, but the mast bulkhead cut-out, fabrication of new bulkhead, and the new spar tangs are all very interesting, especially the tricks you used to put the new T tang anchors inside the spar. Snorkle - howling / part of the problem? Tis a matter of perspective Precious. Am I Snorkle? Just curious?

The crux of the problem right now is that the class is divided and in turmoil ~ The membership shall decide by vote which way to go ~ and by 2009 this will all be behind us. That's the b/w version. In the technicolor world, If the asym scantling change for the National Class E Scow is defeated, in 2009 you will sail against other symetrical boats at NCESA sanctions events. BUTT (Big BUTT) (#)#) ~ Do not be suprised if a new class is formed overnight called the Extreme - Scow, (they'll end up shorting it in polite company to the E-Scow I'm sure). This Extreme Scow class will live on the same waters you sail, they'll have asym kites, maybe even carbon spars after a while and they'll piss you off to no end as they sail right by you both upwind and down.

It will be kinda of like what a Lightning, Interlake, of Highlander sailor experiences during club racing ( I always love to se the looks on thier faces as we creep up from a stern and leward and roll by them like they're standing still.never get's old). Then in about 8 years, after everyone's crew has jumped ship for the Extreme, because they've figured out that hiking to leward on the downwind legs suck. The remaining boats might decide that the asym is the way to go, much like the Volvo and AC boys. BUTT (big Butt (#)#) again), behold there will already be that boat, everyone will switch and the class will die ~ Cold? YES, Hard YES?, Truth.you bet cha~ Go ahead and flame away ~ ~ Precious Snorkle ( I think I might change my name to that.gotz a good ring). Lofty: check the specs from vote #1 if you like, or accept the stated tolerances were 4'.

I posted the text from the PDF here if you care to look through the thread. Just pointing out the proposed 6' is 50% more than 4'. Per your own posting, the tolerance on computer designed and cut sails could have been naught and delivered class button sails. That, OD asails, is something I would have voted for.

Based on mail and PMs I am not alone. But, flame away if that serves some purpose. I'll consider options. Without a doubt the tolerance for the tape lengths in the original vote were 4', that fact is simply un-arguable. I wish I had some answer as to why they have been changed to 6', your guess is as good as mine, but I will give you my best guess. More than likely the tolerance has been allowed in order for sail makers to be sail makers.

If we make the sail completely without tolerance and say, 'this is it' then the Asail is bought based on the lowest price, then we have a price war between sailmakers which would eventually eliminate one of them. Unfortunately we know which one that would be. With the tolerances built in it gives the sailmakers a chance to build the best all-around sail and market it as such. That does two things. 1) it keeps the sailmakers in business (they are in business to make a profit) 2) gives E sailors the best possible equipment we can get based on class rules. That's just my take, flame if you will.

More than likely the tolerance has been allowed in order for sail makers to be sail makers. If we make the sail completely without tolerance and say, 'this is it' then the Asail is bought based on the lowest price, then we have a price war between sailmakers which would eventually eliminate one of them. Resource Extractor Re V0.5 Download. Unfortunately we know which one that would be. With the tolerances built in it gives the sailmakers a chance to build the best all-around sail and market it as such. That does two things.

1) it keeps the sailmakers in business (they are in business to make a profit) 2) gives E sailors the best possible equipment we can get based on class rules. That's just my take, flame if you will. D Good stuff ~ I agree as well. Healthy competition keeps pricies down and quality up.

What is the general feeling of Melges and Windward, are they going to be able to get all the conversions done before ~May if it's decided we sail assymetric in 2008? That seems like a pretty lofty goal to me, seems like approval of the change and be converted by 2009 would make more sense. From the source at the BoD meeting, the builders say 'No Problem and No Wait in 2008'.Henry Collie being the stand up guy he is even offered to DONTATE a truck and guy to go around and assist with the conversions. No he didn't mention a geographic range, but since most of the opposition was comeing from the east and Henry from the east.I'm thinking if you are from the East and want some help for your fleet ~ Give Henry a call and send over a guy in truck to help out. I do;t have the whole story, but maybe someone call fill inthe blanks on Dr. Love's proposal to also help the fleet with the conversions ~ They touched on it very briefly at the BoD meeting, but it was nebulous. They also disussed how much time a do-it-yourselfer would have to put in on the conversion ~ They said on a boat with the bulk head already in place, it would take about 2 hours on the hull work and another 2 hours for the mast and control lines.

You'll need access to a 10K lbs swedger though.But If you are near any kind of sailing, I'm sure someone's got one and would sympathetic to the cause. I've gotten a few requests on out-the-door conversion pricing from some members. After checking into this, John Hyashi from Windward threw out some very reasonable figures for the whole turn key shi-bang, do-it-your-self, and hul and mast conversion sans chute.

In checking in with Lon, A Blue Ribbon committee has been formed to gather the avaialble information regarding conversion pricing and communicate same to the fleet in a timely manner. This committee is headed up by Wawasee's own Casey Call. I'm certain Casey will be able to present this to the membership very soon and then everyone will have a clear cut view on what it will take to perform this conversion, should it pass. I believe that communication is key right now and the BoD are working dilegently to provide the most accurate up to date information possible. Individuall fleets that do not have an action plan moving forward should the vote carry, might be well suited to open a discussion on the subject.

'Cause Y'know if you all band together and buy your chutes as one and do the conversions as one ~ You'll save a bunch $$ in volume pricing discounts, not to mention time (which is $$). Cheers ~ The Anarchist formally know as Vegas, but is stuck as Precious Snorkle until DAWG can release him from this hell. It's probably been said before, but I was talking to Andy B.

Today about some other business, and I asked him if he thought that between MPS and Windward if there was really enough time and parts to get everyone changed over this winter. He said without any hesitation, 'absolutely - no problem at all. It's also a really easy project for most owners to do themselves.' Y'all know that already, and I keep asking him to post here, but since he won't, that's from the horse's mouth. Good luck, E-sailors. It's probably been said before, but I was talking to Andy B.

Today about some other business, and I asked him if he thought that between MPS and Windward if there was really enough time and parts to get everyone changed over this winter. He said without any hesitation, 'absolutely - no problem at all. It's also a really easy project for most owners to do themselves.' Y'all know that already, and I keep asking him to post here, but since he won't, that's from the horse's mouth. Good luck, E-sailors. Thanks Clean ~ Good luck to you in BVIs. Have a Kalik for me.

It's probably been said before, but I was talking to Andy B. Today about some other business, and I asked him if he thought that between MPS and Windward if there was really enough time and parts to get everyone changed over this winter. He said without any hesitation, 'absolutely - no problem at all. It's also a really easy project for most owners to do themselves.' Y'all know that already, and I keep asking him to post here, but since he won't, that's from the horse's mouth.

Good luck, E-sailors. I still find it really hard to believe that between two shops they'd be able to get all those boats done (both shops are great and do great work, don't think I'm discounting either) Could they get all the boats done between say January and May??

Sure, no problem. Problem ~ How easy is it to get a 28' boat out of a storage building buried in snow?

Problem ~ If boats are in buildings buried in snow and can't be moved until March or April can they still get it done? Now the time frame is 2-3 months, not 5. Answer: make the conversion date 2009.

(yes I am campaigning) Flame Away D. I still find it really hard to believe that between two shops they'd be able to get all those boats done (both shops are great and do great work, don't think I'm discounting either) Could they get all the boats done between say January and May?? Sure, no problem.

Problem ~ How easy is it to get a 28' boat out of a storage building buried in snow? Problem ~ If boats are in buildings buried in snow and can't be moved until March or April can they still get it done? Now the time frame is 2-3 months, not 5. Answer: make the conversion date 2009. (yes I am campaigning) Flame Away D I support 2009 as well. The fleet needs to consider owners finances and current sail inventory. I still find it really hard to believe that between two shops they'd be able to get all those boats done (both shops are great and do great work, don't think I'm discounting either) Could they get all the boats done between say January and May??

Sure, no problem. Problem ~ How easy is it to get a 28' boat out of a storage building buried in snow? Problem ~ If boats are in buildings buried in snow and can't be moved until March or April can they still get it done? Now the time frame is 2-3 months, not 5.

Answer: make the conversion date 2009. (yes I am campaigning) Flame Away D There's no snow right now.

Sure, post away! Dan Here goes. With that PDF your get pretty good idea what's it all about: I will have to do it again with another hull so I've given it a lot of thought.

There really isn't much I'd do differently. The biggest bitch is the bulkhead. You REALLY want that thing glassed in well and tight fitting.

I went too light on the glass and broke the first one out in about 10 minutes of use. It sees a lot of load so really focus there. I just used cheap crap 3/8 inch plywood glassed over on both sides. The tabbing is the key though. I'd also track down the glue that Melges is using to glue the hoods down.

I'll dig around in my notes to find out what it is. I was in a hurry and couldn't get any in time.

I used 5200 and while it held ok at first, I wound up running a few bolts through the hood just to keep things together. The real breakthrough for me was the bushings. I had these machined out of UHMW by ACC Marine who also did the pole. These are supper slick and allow the pole to ride SUPER smooth.

Here is a couple of pics. I came up with the idea for thru-bolting the eye on the end of the pole so that it would be bombproof. I really don't like poles with the u-bolt sticking out on the bottom just waiting to snag a kite.

The inside plug is machined UHMW. That is one part that won't break. I got all of my info for the mast from Art B. He is a mast god.

I was in a HUGE hurry to get this part done. I did the whole mast in a morning by myself.

I went pretty trick on the fittings and used T-fittings with internal backing plates. Here is a shot of my rig for installing the backing plates. Here is a shot of the diamond wire going though the shroud. When I first started the project, I used the original scantlings to follow as a guide.

Here is a shot of us taking some measurements figuring out where to cut, etc. Here was the fun part. Cutting the hole. I crawled up there and made sure I knew where the beam was and drilled a few tiny guide holes. I used a hole saw to cut the ends, that way no cracks form Smile That first cut is the hardest. The mock-up pole made out of ABS sewer pipe. Working up under the bow is a complete bitch.

Get the smallest guy you can to do the work. Make sure he has a very good respirator on.

I had fans running to help control the epoxy fumes. I ran the 'pole-out' line back to so the person sitting next to me can pull the pole out while the jib man is occupied with other things. I used a bungie to retract the pole. Feel free to pass my email address around to the other guys if they have questions.

I was pretty lucky in that I had worked in a boatyard for a year building cool boats and I had seen some pretty neat ideas. Plus, I had a contact at ACC Marine to make the pole for me. I supplied him with the dimensions I wanted and he produced a work of art. Keep it as simple as you can.